John practices in the Zen Buddhist tradition of Robert Aitken (Diamond Sangha)
This is a summary (not a full transcript) of the interview
John was attracted to fundamentalist Christianity as a teen for a few years. It did not work for John. He abandoned all religion in his 20’s living an agnostic/atheist life. He was accepting things that other people were saying, and he decided he was not going to do that again.
He stumbled on a book On Zen by Alan Watts. That caught his attention. Then started to figure out how to meditate, learned a bit from the TM movement.
Did you understand what parts of it?
He did not understand all of it, but he did get non-duality. This was a whole new understanding that opened up for John. He by then had his own meditation practice on and off. Year on, year off kind of practice. He would feel that he would need to get back into it.
Where you attracted to meditation as a way of insight, or as a way to experience something you were looking for?
Maybe more the insight. I got fairly involved in the lead-up to the presidential elections in 2004. When that was all done, and the dust settled, I realized I was full of anger and even hatred towards the chosen political enemies. Then I phoned the Zen Center after finding them online.
Have you found that joining a group is different than meditating alone?
Yes, definitely. Especially the first couple of years, John derived tremendous support from the regular weekly sits, and meditating and support from other people. That whole structure that keeps you on the cushion, and prevents you from a moment of restlessness coming along, and tricking you into jumping up, and doing something else. And the book studies have been very helpful.
So the structure is very helpful too?
Yes, extremely helpful. If you see structure as a means to an end, as a tool, then you wouldn’t see it as limiting or old-fashioned tradition that doesn’t fit the modern era. It’s there to help people.
How has your relationship with those perceived enemies changed at all?
I don’t think my political views have shifted much. My indulging in hatred is way less than it used to be (laughs). So that’s a good thing! The hatred thing, the target is no longer individual people. There are so many facets to a complex society, some not functioning well, sick, very poor design. So a person may get elected to congress.
For example the structure of congress is stacked against you. Very hard to be an awake and honest person, and not get corrupted by the money from the lobbyists and so forth, when you’re in that environment all the time.
So, I guess I’ve shifted from individuals to the system that I perceive as something that is bad.
Do you see that a system can be shifted by individuals or groups, or completely needs to be uprooted or re-designed?
Uprooting is a tempting fantasy, because it is quick. The ultimate expression of that is war. You perceive an enemy, and the best thing is just to eliminate your enemy.
But then you assume of enemy as outside?
Yes, the enemy is all outside, and things good is all in me, and all things bad in someone else.
But to truly have a culture evolving into something healthier, does require the individuals in that culture, become more aware, educated and enlightened. And developed in a balanced way, where not just our minds, but our hearts are also developed.
Has this way of long-term seeing changed the way you get attached to outcomes?
Perhaps, I understand how to be unattached to outcomes, but more focused on the nature on your actions, is perhaps a more spiritual way to be in the world.
When you practice there is a certain letting go of the desire of certain outcomes, not having strong attachments to certain outcomes, whether in your immediate area, or the larger geopolitical arena?
Yes, I’ve probably developed a little in that direction. As things play out from my actions, I’m not necessarily in control. I might do something in one particular thing in space and time, but the consequences of what I do in that spot, goes on without me. It’s better to focus on the nature of my act. Am I acting free of greed or, desire for revenge, hatred. What is my true motivation I think is more important, than banking on a particular outcome. Because it never comes out that way anyway, even driving to the store to get milk.
Yes, that reminds me of your example you mentioned of an instance of road rage?
Yes, I have an 2 examples of my own road rage. Both times I was really surprised I had this in me, I didn’t know it was there.
I was just getting on the freeway, it was fall, rainy and dark. I was careful to look for a space in traffic. and this guy comes zooming in. He roared by me, and it made me jump. It triggered this rage in me, it took me 2 miles on the freeway to get this under control. This whole time I sat with this rage. I realized if I had a much bigger vehicle, and it was banged up, I would have chased him down and bumped his car and driven him into the barrier. That’s how illogical and enraged I was. I just had a little car and couldn’t catch up.
So I started thinking….what does a Buddhist do in this situation I thought? I think you just be a bit detached, just watch it, instead of being it, but 2-3 miles, I did start to settle down.
Second time, similar incident, also someone roared by. And in this case not only was I powerless, but my wife also screamed at John to slow down. She reminded him to slow down, and he might escalate the situation. those are two instances, where I had to struggle to become detached from the rage I experience inside of me.
What was also important was the constraints that I have, I had a little bit of a rational mind, but also external constraints, the realities of traffic, not doing something that was even more dangerous. and my wife reminding me to get sane again.
But there are also other times, when there were no external constraints at all, and then there will be that moment of choice.
Sure, give us another example.
This involves you and Kristina! (laughs)
This was one of the very the first times I showed up for Zen, and we exchanged names, and one of you said something like, “Are you new to Spokane? Have you lived here long?”
And I asked you two, well how long have you been in this town?
And Kristina laughed at the way I said that. And somehow, and this is just me, not you or Kristina, I took that as a kind of a put-down. That i was using a phrase that was dated, or maybe she thought I was pompous. He felt judged. But as soon as she laughed, I could feel myself getting defensive.
And that moment, if you catch it right at the beginning, that’s when things are most fluid. I didn’t even have words behind this decision. I just made the decision, I wasn’t going to go there, just going to watch it happen.
There’s my feeling vulnerable, and insecure again, feeling judged again. That sort of thing. Because i was able to catch it in the very beginning, it just evaporated. It was an experience of freedom. I did not make a psychic cage around myself. I was free.
You didn’t take it personal?
Absolutely not, the laugh happened, my judgement happened, my reaction happened, I just watched it happen. And then I was fine, I was done with it.
Another example of a positive outcome. Many years ago, Mary and I had a disagreement. We were getting at each other a bit, and she said something that hooked me. I watched the whole thing happen. I watched the words go in, and there was a strong visual component to this experience. It was like I was looking inside myself. I could see this happening.
Inside myself, looking down through my spine, at the bottom there was this dark pool of liquid. Like mud. And I looked down, and I saw this shape starting to emerge, and as it came out, I saw it was this coiled snake. But it was really anger at what my wife said. It was halfway out, and I still had a choice. At that moment I still had a choice. I could say yes, or no to this thing, and so I said no . And it went back down. No anger at that point.
What about present-moment awareness, have you noticed that change over the years of practice?
I think so, I’m more aware when I’m not in the present. I can kind of pull myself away from all my head trips that takes me out of the present. When I’m going to beautiful scenery, like on a walk, I’m much more likely to actually notice it, like smells and sounds as well as the sights.
Is that something from practicing in that moment, or over time practice?
Yes, the second thing, it’s a cumulative effect of practicing over time.
Is there anything when you’re not on the cushion that is practice related?
Sometimes I’ll use the Tibetan mantra, Om Mani Padme Hum. When I feel a need to be more in my heart than my head, I use that, and I visualize my energy going from my head to my heart.
The jewel is in the lotus, that which I seek, I already am?
Yes, the jewel in the lotus, the lotus being the heart. The pearl of great price, The jewel that we’re all seeking. We don’t know that it is there, we have to put our attention there, to live from that spot.
When I’m really feeling really scattered, irritated, tired, bored, I will sometimes use that.
What is the role of a teacher in your practice?
I get to ask Jack (John’s teacher) some questions, that I don’t know who else to possibly ask those questions of that nature. He’s reassuring for me. Sometimes I don’t know where I am in this journey, even though I have some mental road maps. Like the 10 ox herding pictures. But I don’t know where I am on that road map. I need a second opinion on that (laughs). Am I more or less awakened than I think I am?
Any other tips, or inspirations that help you?
Your questions make me aware that I can do much more on a daily basis to remind myself to return to the present. I think I might make that a project to jot down some of those tools and use them more often. I just tend to notice more frequently where I am, where my attention, awareness, and energies are. Sometimes that’s all you need.
And you intend to keep on practicing?
Yes it’s been good for me. One of the aspects of Zen that is a good fit for me, is that in my youth I was so much in my head, and Zen is merciless at cutting down those head trips. Pushing you out of that comfort zone.
Tania de Jong AM is a leading Australian soprano, inspirational speaker, social entrepreneur, spiritual journeywoman and creative innovation catalyst. She founded Creative Universe, Creativity Australia, Music Theatre Australia, Pot-Pourri and The Song Room and works with diverse communities through the ‘With One Voice’ choir social inclusion programs. Tania sings around the world as a soloist and with her group Pot-Pourri releasing 7 CDs. She is Founder and Executive Producer of Creative Innovation Global.
Tania’s TED Talk How Singing Together Changes The Brain has sparked international interest (see Youtube video embedded below). Tania has recently released her solo CD Heaven on Earth.
This is a summary (not a full transcript) of the interview
How did you get started with a meditation practice?
Tania: Yeah, I started with TM, wasn’t very disciplined at it. For me, singing became my meditation.
Singing is an active form of meditation.
When you sing you have no choice but to be totally in the moment.
You have to be conscious of your breath, and you can’t be thinking about anything else. Your body is an instrument. To actually sing sustained sound, you have to keep your breath going. Its’ similar to meditation, having an even exhalation breath, that’s what the sounds sits on.
If you practice hissing, you get a sense of what happens. You need to keep the air flow going.
Did meditation help you with singing?
Tania: Yoga helped as a more active form of meditation. Its hard to sit and meditate.
Sicco: Chanting is a kind of singing meditation in my Zen meditation. Letting my breath sink, use your whole body as an instrument, instead of just the top.
Tania: Yes, changing and singing correctly engages your whole body right. Through mother earth you bring the sound of the earth. Tania feels like she’s breathing all the way from her feet and up. She feels this incredible energy sphere around her body.
Many have trouble unlocking the full potential of their voice. Many folks think of their voice as just above their neck and up. My voice is my voice box. When you do that, You fail to engage the resonating cavities that are in their bodies. Your body is like a resonating instrument. There’s resonators in your chest cavities. Resonate right through your head. Their upper amplifiers.
A lot of people have a very tight jaw, which is another issue that keeps you from from using the full capability of your voice. When you chant or sing, in that passioned way, you start to relax your jaw as well, which allows you to access those resonators more.
You mentioned clenched jaw, there’s psychological boundaries to get through as well.
Yes, it’s all about letting go. The root of your tongue can get hard too. There are certain exercises you can do to gradually release the jaw, let the jaw relax at night. It’s also about letting go of control. When we’re holding on to issues, wanting control. Instead of Practicing acceptance, we get tight with our jaw, or when we’re afraid. Relaxing that jaw hinge is extremely important. The TMJ (“Temporomandibular Joint”).
Are there other parts of the boy that need to relax as well in order to fully express your voice?
Yes, some folks lift their shoulders up, only breathing in the upper part of their chest cavity. Heave of their chest, you have to learn to breathe at the base of your ribs. I liken it to blowing up a balloon inside your stomach. You blow it up and it is all the way around 360 degrees. When you breathe in your upper part of your chest, that is a stress response, its a fear and panic response. That also induces a relaxation response.
So it helps people with anxiety problems too?
Singing would have to be one of the best ways to heal anxiety and depression that I know of. A lot of people suffer from depression and anxiety. Many people have stopped taking drugs. Singing is the greatest drug of all. Very good for you, a bit addictive perhaps.
Singing is like exercise for your brain, body, mind, and soul. A super duper drug!
And you mention it takes you out of the box thinking?
Yeah, so basically our brain is like a battery, and the right side of the brain, which is our creative intuitive side, is like a charger. But we spend a lot of time, especially in today’s world, analyzing data, overwhelmed with so much information. 85% spend time on the left side of our brain.
So it is very important to spend time doing activities which recharge the right side of the brain so we don’t get burned out, stressed, depressed. One is singing, meditation walking in nature, walking with pets, cuddling with loved ones. Being creative in other ways, all extremely important ways to recharge your mental batteries.
Often times people with depression are not doing enough of those sorts of activities.
And society is also having productivity and bottom line expectations.
But actually organizations will have a much better and achieve their goals, bottom-line if they allowed to recharge their right sides of their brains. Helps with productivity, positive about the future. Whereas stress about the bottom line is unhealthy driven pattern.
That is one of the reasons why there is an increase of anxiety and depression. Mental health issues arising all over the world. Depression is one of the main chronic illnesses of the western world.
…
You mention uncovering your one voice and your unique voice.
With our one voice we bring together many individuals, job seekers, and others who are struggling in their lives. We bring together all these diverse people, these diverse voices.
We all suffer the same fears, same hopes, we’re all connected, part of this universal consciousness.
There’s something really special when you sing together with other people. Some of the research shows that our hearts start to beat together, when we sing together.
There is this connectedness.
Your creativity sparks when you’re with a diverse people. Most people tend hang around similar people. Dress, talk the same, similar education, etc. I believe that we can get more of our human potential, if we connect with people who are very different from us. We learn a lot from being with people who are very different from us. It sparks our creativity.
Getting out of our own comfort zone is the best way to unlock our own creativity and your unique voice. Otherwise you’re in the box.
We start life being born in a box, then we go home to a house, another box, in the supermarket we buy boxes of stuff, same boxes. We tick boxes on forms, and then we go out of life in a box. I have this theory that, life happens between the boxes.
On the bridges where we connect with other people, with a larger universe.
So to connect with that, you have to get out of your comfort zone.
How do you encourage that?
The biggest way to get out of your boxes, is to connect with other people. Befriend an alien! Sit down next to someone you don’t know. Don’t just hang out with the people you know. You may actually find out you share something, there might be synergies between you.
Look for new experiences. If something really scares you, go and try it. There are a lot of people who are very scared of singing. and public speaking (Glossophobia – Public Speaking). 74% have speaking anxiety, includes extroverts (Source: National Institute of Mental Health). 85% of people have been told at some point in their lives that they can’t sing, their parents, schools, etc. That is why a lot of people have a fear of it. Been told they’re not good enough.
That would never happen in parts of Africa. All tribes sing together, sing in harmony. Singing is a tribal and primal activity. It is only in our western world where there’s such a culture of celebrity. We start judging ourselves.
I was told as a 4 year old, never to bother to have singing lessons. If I believed that, I would not be sharing that gift with the world today. That would be sad for me, and those who enjoy listening to me.
Every single person was born with a voice to share with the world. Our voices are a reflection of who we are as a human being.Voice is the language of our hearts. Many people who are disadvantaged in their lives, their voices are silenced. Not just their singing voice, but their voice.
People often don’t feel like they can speak up, can’t express themselves. They can’t say what’s truly in their hearts. Going through their lives not being able to do what they truly want to do.
My vision in life is to help people find their true voice. And also to change the world, one voice at a time. Which we’re doing through Creativity Australia. We have this big global campaign, “Sing for Good”. Two or more people pump it up on YouTube, and then getting family to vote and support disadvantaged people.
We talk about self-limiting beliefs, a lot of that comes from childhood. Our caregivers and teachers do their best, but sometimes things are said that shouldn’t be said. The negative sticks more to a child than the positive.
We have a lot of big projects designed to help people find their voice, connect with diverse people, and to connect to their creativity. I tried to de-condition myself from deep childhood conditioning, which created self-limiting beliefs.
Yes, things happen, a lot of self-limiting beliefs come from childhood. We have to be very careful what we say to young people. People do their absolute best to give encouragement and constructive to young people.
I’ve talked to tens of thousands of people who have remembered things that they’ve been told, between ages of 0-15 that they remember for their whole lives which stops them from being who they really are.
This celebrity culture (putting people on pedestals) must be part of the system as well right?
Celebrity culture constantly remind us that we’re just ordinary, just living an ordinary life. When it in actual fact, it is the opposite, every person is actually extraordinary. When you speak to people in our choirs, you realize that every single person is extraordinary.
Tania mentions a person with cerebral palsy. She has such incapacity, and yet every week she comes to the program, happy to be there, laughs all the time, she found a job through it. She knows all the songs and the words by heart. Every week she comes there to the choir, and if I’m having a grumpy day, Beth teaches me and all of us about gratitude. It’s just the luck of the draw where we’re born, and our conditions. Are you going to take things for granted, or are you going to live with gratitude? And she is so grateful herself, despite her conditions and adversity.
Truckhaven Rocks with heavy storm clouds behind on the Santa Rosa Mountains
Talk about what inspired you to create the song, “Heaven on Earth”.
I wanted to connect that higher consciousness that we all have, to earth. To create a CD that would take people to a heavenly space, meditation, a space of reflection and illumination. Songs of love, that would help people feel more light, and love and peace.
Some is music by Mozart, Beethoven, and Dvorgak, timeless classic orchestral works, and then there’s also some original work. Like the title track.
Starts with Mark Twain’s beautiful quote,
“Sing like no one is listening, love like you’ve never been hurt, dance like no one is watching, and live like it is heaven on earth.”
I do belief that people need to sing like no one is listening. It’s just come out (see link to music below, and this is played in the podcast as well).
We all have our daily issues, the humdrum of life, but how do we get to experience the glory of life? It’s so incredible to be alive. And looking in nature is a great way to connect with life, for connecting with the right side of the brain. Like looking and smelling a rose.
And they teach us to be here without needing an excuse or justification and unique. Yes, flowers and animals don’t have that judgement that humans feel. Yes, dogs don’t make value judgments, they’re unconditionally loving. How do we as human beings can get more into that space? Of non-judgement, acceptance, love peace, letting go. So that we can truly experience our lives in every moment.
Do you have any tips for someone who wants to be more in that space?
The key is you have to reserve a little time every day, that is your time, where you do something you love, something that gives you a gift.
It could be a beautiful bath, music, or going for a walk, like by the ocean.
Singing, meditating,
Breathing, becoming aware of your breathing in each moment.
Letting go of the past, and any anxiety for the future.
The only moment we can really have any control over, is this exact moment. That’s all there is.
What would I do if my life were to end today or next month, what would I do with my life? Start doing those things.
The rest of your life starts now.
My favorite quote,
By Rabi Hillel says,
“If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?” Ethics of the Fathers, 1:14
I encourage everyone to not put off any longer doing the things you really love to do. Especially singing. Find your voice!
